<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Faithlessons</title>
	<atom:link href="http://thethirdestate.net/2009/03/faithlessons/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/03/faithlessons/</link>
	<description>What Is The Third Estate? Everything. What Has It Been Until Now In The Political Order? Nothing. What Does It Want To Be? Something.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 20:19:31 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Salman Shaheen</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/03/faithlessons/comment-page-1/#comment-96</link>
		<dc:creator>Salman Shaheen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 22:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=289#comment-96</guid>
		<description>Oh but I so wanted extra points from you Mitchell. Please can I have them? They&#039;d be my most meaningful achievement since my silver medal in swimming club...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh but I so wanted extra points from you Mitchell. Please can I have them? They&#8217;d be my most meaningful achievement since my silver medal in swimming club&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/03/faithlessons/comment-page-1/#comment-95</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 22:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=289#comment-95</guid>
		<description>First of all, acknowledging that you&#039;ve read one book gives your argument doesn&#039;t give you extra points. 

Secondly, are you still talking about France?! Integration has always been seen in terms of nation and identity, right back to the beginning with politicians like the Comte de Clermont-Tonnerre. You know, the whole &quot;it&#039;s okay to be a Jewish Frenchman but not a French Jew&quot; thing? And this has been the case with waves of different immigrations from Armenians and West Africans after WWI to Eastern and Central Europeans in the 30s right up to the North and West Africans of late. 

Of course the economic side was crucial, and various communities integrated with varying degrees of success. In terms of recent immigration, the French establishment has hopefully learned for future reference that lumping migrants in horrific housing estates away from employment and services is not the best idea for anyone concerned. Still, I would argue from my knowledge of the history of migrant communities in France that the French have historically approached immigration in terms of (and measured the success of integration on) acceptance of the nation and the national identity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, acknowledging that you&#8217;ve read one book gives your argument doesn&#8217;t give you extra points. </p>
<p>Secondly, are you still talking about France?! Integration has always been seen in terms of nation and identity, right back to the beginning with politicians like the Comte de Clermont-Tonnerre. You know, the whole &#8220;it&#8217;s okay to be a Jewish Frenchman but not a French Jew&#8221; thing? And this has been the case with waves of different immigrations from Armenians and West Africans after WWI to Eastern and Central Europeans in the 30s right up to the North and West Africans of late. </p>
<p>Of course the economic side was crucial, and various communities integrated with varying degrees of success. In terms of recent immigration, the French establishment has hopefully learned for future reference that lumping migrants in horrific housing estates away from employment and services is not the best idea for anyone concerned. Still, I would argue from my knowledge of the history of migrant communities in France that the French have historically approached immigration in terms of (and measured the success of integration on) acceptance of the nation and the national identity.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Salman Shaheen</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/03/faithlessons/comment-page-1/#comment-93</link>
		<dc:creator>Salman Shaheen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=289#comment-93</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t dispute the very well entrenched philosophy of laicite. What&#039;s (relatively) new, as I pointed to, and as Layton-Henry &amp; Joly (2001) identify, is the shift from thinking in terms of socio-economic integration to nationalist and identity-based integration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t dispute the very well entrenched philosophy of laicite. What&#8217;s (relatively) new, as I pointed to, and as Layton-Henry &#038; Joly (2001) identify, is the shift from thinking in terms of socio-economic integration to nationalist and identity-based integration.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/03/faithlessons/comment-page-1/#comment-92</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 20:51:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=289#comment-92</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think it&#039;s a new philosophy of citizenship at all, although you&#039;re right that the 2004 Law was aimed at the Muslim population. It was, rather, a reassertion of the exclusion of religion from the state, including the state&#039;s institutions, that has been a defining feature of the French constitutions since the Revolution. This is seen as one of the basic contracts between the state and its citizens - we won&#039;t interfere in your private beliefs if you keep your private beliefs out of our sphere. 

Nor is the 2004 Law a unique example in the history of the French Republic. Growing fears of the role of the Catholic church led to the 1905 Law that ended state funding for &quot;official&quot; religions and sought to return to the constitutional purity of absolutely no state involvement with religion. That too was controversial, not helped by government seizure of church property, but was deemed necessary if France should remain a truly laic state.

So in fact, rather than being a &quot;new philosophy of citizenship&quot;, the 2004 Law was an attempt to re-emphasise the traditional philosophy of citizenship, in which of course is tied equality of the sexes as we said and the contract of laïcité. And whilst concerns over Muslim integration should not be dismissed lightly (as they often were at the time), the Republic, if it was to remain faithful to its constitution, could not make the Muslims an exception to its own rules without seriously damaging itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a new philosophy of citizenship at all, although you&#8217;re right that the 2004 Law was aimed at the Muslim population. It was, rather, a reassertion of the exclusion of religion from the state, including the state&#8217;s institutions, that has been a defining feature of the French constitutions since the Revolution. This is seen as one of the basic contracts between the state and its citizens &#8211; we won&#8217;t interfere in your private beliefs if you keep your private beliefs out of our sphere. </p>
<p>Nor is the 2004 Law a unique example in the history of the French Republic. Growing fears of the role of the Catholic church led to the 1905 Law that ended state funding for &#8220;official&#8221; religions and sought to return to the constitutional purity of absolutely no state involvement with religion. That too was controversial, not helped by government seizure of church property, but was deemed necessary if France should remain a truly laic state.</p>
<p>So in fact, rather than being a &#8220;new philosophy of citizenship&#8221;, the 2004 Law was an attempt to re-emphasise the traditional philosophy of citizenship, in which of course is tied equality of the sexes as we said and the contract of laïcité. And whilst concerns over Muslim integration should not be dismissed lightly (as they often were at the time), the Republic, if it was to remain faithful to its constitution, could not make the Muslims an exception to its own rules without seriously damaging itself.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Salman Shaheen</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/03/faithlessons/comment-page-1/#comment-91</link>
		<dc:creator>Salman Shaheen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 19:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=289#comment-91</guid>
		<description>You have a good point about unsupervised medresses. You&#039;re also right to point out that France&#039;s ban was on all conspicuous religious symbols. However, although the law was justified in terms of laicite and women&#039;s rights, it cannot be reduced to these two factors alone. It was very much tied up with the new philosophy of citizenship and specifically aimed at Muslims, precisely because this was the one group in France for whom religious identity was still self-reported to be stronger than national identity. That&#039;s not to say that women&#039;s rights and laicite are irrelevant in this. It would be hard to imagine the law without them - and certainly not the latter - but they were not the first mover. They didn&#039;t make the watch, they just asked for the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have a good point about unsupervised medresses. You&#8217;re also right to point out that France&#8217;s ban was on all conspicuous religious symbols. However, although the law was justified in terms of laicite and women&#8217;s rights, it cannot be reduced to these two factors alone. It was very much tied up with the new philosophy of citizenship and specifically aimed at Muslims, precisely because this was the one group in France for whom religious identity was still self-reported to be stronger than national identity. That&#8217;s not to say that women&#8217;s rights and laicite are irrelevant in this. It would be hard to imagine the law without them &#8211; and certainly not the latter &#8211; but they were not the first mover. They didn&#8217;t make the watch, they just asked for the time.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/03/faithlessons/comment-page-1/#comment-90</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 19:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=289#comment-90</guid>
		<description>Muslim majority in name only. Only something like 20% of Turks consider themselves to be practising Muslims. Plus there are many different sects in Turkey, such as the Alevîs (c. 25% of Muslim population) who don’t wear the hijab and resent growing moves towards its official sanction. 

Regardless, the rationale in Turkey is no different to the French model. The French model seeks to ban all religious symbols in public places, as does the Turkish. The French model additionally often sees the hijab as a cultural symbol of the repression of women, as does the Turkish. The French model acts without factoring in what the majority belief is, as does the Turkish. The principle is the same, and of course that is no coincidence if you consider that Turkish laïcité arguably is based to a large extent on the French. 

The fact is, as in France, the ban applies in public places and is not just against Muslims, but all religious symbols, crucifixes, skull caps, the whole show. Turkey is a special case I guess because 60% or so of women wear the hijab, and because of this the pro-hijab camp argue that the ban precludes many women from a university education and government jobs. What the secularists argue is that the ban should remain to encourage women to remove the headscarf not as a “religious” symbol but as a symbolic assertion of gender equality enshrined in the constitution, just as women were in past decades encouraged to remove the veil. I would tend towards the secularists, because in Turkey, as in many Muslim communities in Europe including the UK, the hijab is often imposed from a young age to define a woman’s role in society, not to aid piety as is often argued. 

The question of faith schools is tricky – the Turks found in the 30s and 40s that the Kemalist ban on religious instruction simply pushed religion “underground”, and the emergence of a number of radical Islamist groups from the 1960s is often seen as evidence of the failure of that policy. The state’s denial of a section of the population’s desire for a religion-based education caused problems. However, state-supervised faith schools that have existed since the 50s, with broad curricula covering both traditional religious instruction and the secular syllabus, have managed to some extent to reconcile religious Muslims to the secular Turkish Republic. 

In the UK there are only a tiny number of official Muslim faith schools within the state education system, but there are many hundreds of unsupervised medresses attached to mosques and community centres; perhaps before introducing a blanket ban that would not eradicate unofficial religious instruction anyway, it would be preferable to better integrate and regulate such institutions within the wider state education system?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Muslim majority in name only. Only something like 20% of Turks consider themselves to be practising Muslims. Plus there are many different sects in Turkey, such as the Alevîs (c. 25% of Muslim population) who don’t wear the hijab and resent growing moves towards its official sanction. </p>
<p>Regardless, the rationale in Turkey is no different to the French model. The French model seeks to ban all religious symbols in public places, as does the Turkish. The French model additionally often sees the hijab as a cultural symbol of the repression of women, as does the Turkish. The French model acts without factoring in what the majority belief is, as does the Turkish. The principle is the same, and of course that is no coincidence if you consider that Turkish laïcité arguably is based to a large extent on the French. </p>
<p>The fact is, as in France, the ban applies in public places and is not just against Muslims, but all religious symbols, crucifixes, skull caps, the whole show. Turkey is a special case I guess because 60% or so of women wear the hijab, and because of this the pro-hijab camp argue that the ban precludes many women from a university education and government jobs. What the secularists argue is that the ban should remain to encourage women to remove the headscarf not as a “religious” symbol but as a symbolic assertion of gender equality enshrined in the constitution, just as women were in past decades encouraged to remove the veil. I would tend towards the secularists, because in Turkey, as in many Muslim communities in Europe including the UK, the hijab is often imposed from a young age to define a woman’s role in society, not to aid piety as is often argued. </p>
<p>The question of faith schools is tricky – the Turks found in the 30s and 40s that the Kemalist ban on religious instruction simply pushed religion “underground”, and the emergence of a number of radical Islamist groups from the 1960s is often seen as evidence of the failure of that policy. The state’s denial of a section of the population’s desire for a religion-based education caused problems. However, state-supervised faith schools that have existed since the 50s, with broad curricula covering both traditional religious instruction and the secular syllabus, have managed to some extent to reconcile religious Muslims to the secular Turkish Republic. </p>
<p>In the UK there are only a tiny number of official Muslim faith schools within the state education system, but there are many hundreds of unsupervised medresses attached to mosques and community centres; perhaps before introducing a blanket ban that would not eradicate unofficial religious instruction anyway, it would be preferable to better integrate and regulate such institutions within the wider state education system?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Salman Shaheen</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/03/faithlessons/comment-page-1/#comment-88</link>
		<dc:creator>Salman Shaheen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 17:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=289#comment-88</guid>
		<description>Because it&#039;s one thing for a majority Muslim nation to move towards greater secularisation and another for laws targetting Islamic dress to be imposed on a minority by a secular or Christian majority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because it&#8217;s one thing for a majority Muslim nation to move towards greater secularisation and another for laws targetting Islamic dress to be imposed on a minority by a secular or Christian majority.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/03/faithlessons/comment-page-1/#comment-87</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 17:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=289#comment-87</guid>
		<description>Because Kemal The Great fought hard to get those regressive bastards under control, and it would be an affront to his legacy to repeal his legislation on the matter?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because Kemal The Great fought hard to get those regressive bastards under control, and it would be an affront to his legacy to repeal his legislation on the matter?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/03/faithlessons/comment-page-1/#comment-86</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 17:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=289#comment-86</guid>
		<description>Out of interest, why, in your opinion, is Turkey a different case?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Out of interest, why, in your opinion, is Turkey a different case?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Salman Shaheen</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/03/faithlessons/comment-page-1/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>Salman Shaheen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Mar 2009 13:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=289#comment-83</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a good point, Reuben, but where do you draw the line? I certainly would support state coercion to outlaw female genital mutilation, for example. You yourself have even argued in favour of the benefits of colonialism in dealing with issues like that around the world, and in favour of the state making male circumcision illegal. I don&#039;t agree with the banning of the hijab, particularly in majority non-Muslim nations (Turkey I think is a slightly different case) but I do have to recognise that there are some cultural practices that the state has to legislate against. One of the few good things Britain did in India was to outlaw the practice of sati.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good point, Reuben, but where do you draw the line? I certainly would support state coercion to outlaw female genital mutilation, for example. You yourself have even argued in favour of the benefits of colonialism in dealing with issues like that around the world, and in favour of the state making male circumcision illegal. I don&#8217;t agree with the banning of the hijab, particularly in majority non-Muslim nations (Turkey I think is a slightly different case) but I do have to recognise that there are some cultural practices that the state has to legislate against. One of the few good things Britain did in India was to outlaw the practice of sati.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

