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	<title>Comments on: Mind the Gap</title>
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	<description>What Is The Third Estate? Everything. What Has It Been Until Now In The Political Order? Nothing. What Does It Want To Be? Something.</description>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/mind-the-gap/comment-page-1/#comment-4420</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:17:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2086#comment-4420</guid>
		<description>Yeah, the article Bob refers to is here: http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=16518

It&#039;s obviously a small sample, because most of the names on the list had no profession listed at all, but it&#039;s usefully instructive. Some anecdotal experience (of the merseyside branch) is that this fits the breakdown of the active membership (as opposed to the near million passive voters).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, the article Bob refers to is here: <a href="http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=16518" rel="nofollow">http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=16518</a></p>
<p>It&#8217;s obviously a small sample, because most of the names on the list had no profession listed at all, but it&#8217;s usefully instructive. Some anecdotal experience (of the merseyside branch) is that this fits the breakdown of the active membership (as opposed to the near million passive voters).</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/mind-the-gap/comment-page-1/#comment-4419</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2086#comment-4419</guid>
		<description>There is no immediate danger of the BNP getting into power, so in a sense Louis is right that they are not &quot;the real danger&quot;. But anyone who tells us to go and study history but then cannot tell the difference between Brown&#039;s Britain and Hitler&#039;s Germany has a serious reality problem. 

The growth of the far right is dangerous for the reason Dan says, that it translates directly into violent attacks on non-white people, foreigners, Roma, Muslims and so on. And because their rise helps drive the agenda that makes the mainstream parties worse: the British Brothers League drove the agenda that led to the anti-aliens act of 1905, the NF in the 1970s led to Thatcher&#039;s anti-immigrant policies, and the rise of the BNP since the 1990s has been followed by some of our most draconian anti-migrant legislation. (But Louis, as a history expert, presumably already knows that.)

It is true, as Tom notes, that some evidence, e.g. from YouGov http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/who+voted+bnp+and+why/3200557/ that BNP voters are Tory defectors not Labour defectors. But the same data identifies them as working class Tories, not middle class. The data is very limited of course. Looking at places like Barking and Burnley and in particular Stoke and Swanley, it is clear that there is a sizeable ex-Labour working class vote for the BNP. In places like Barking, Burnley, Stoke and Swanley, the BNP thrives by addressing working class issues. 

This is why it is important to &quot;engage&quot; with the issues that drive working class voters. Not by playing to anti-immigrant sentiment (as Brown, Woolas et al do). But by showing why there aren&#039;t enough homes and jobs, and fighting for transparent fairness in their allocation. 

As a footnote, the BNP&#039;s membership and especially its activist base is more like Louis says. I think the SWP published some analysis of the leaked membership list to show they remained from the sections of society fascism has classically drawn from: ex-military, self-employed, small businessmen, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no immediate danger of the BNP getting into power, so in a sense Louis is right that they are not &#8220;the real danger&#8221;. But anyone who tells us to go and study history but then cannot tell the difference between Brown&#8217;s Britain and Hitler&#8217;s Germany has a serious reality problem. </p>
<p>The growth of the far right is dangerous for the reason Dan says, that it translates directly into violent attacks on non-white people, foreigners, Roma, Muslims and so on. And because their rise helps drive the agenda that makes the mainstream parties worse: the British Brothers League drove the agenda that led to the anti-aliens act of 1905, the NF in the 1970s led to Thatcher&#8217;s anti-immigrant policies, and the rise of the BNP since the 1990s has been followed by some of our most draconian anti-migrant legislation. (But Louis, as a history expert, presumably already knows that.)</p>
<p>It is true, as Tom notes, that some evidence, e.g. from YouGov <a href="http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/who+voted+bnp+and+why/3200557/" rel="nofollow">http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/who+voted+bnp+and+why/3200557/</a> that BNP voters are Tory defectors not Labour defectors. But the same data identifies them as working class Tories, not middle class. The data is very limited of course. Looking at places like Barking and Burnley and in particular Stoke and Swanley, it is clear that there is a sizeable ex-Labour working class vote for the BNP. In places like Barking, Burnley, Stoke and Swanley, the BNP thrives by addressing working class issues. </p>
<p>This is why it is important to &#8220;engage&#8221; with the issues that drive working class voters. Not by playing to anti-immigrant sentiment (as Brown, Woolas et al do). But by showing why there aren&#8217;t enough homes and jobs, and fighting for transparent fairness in their allocation. </p>
<p>As a footnote, the BNP&#8217;s membership and especially its activist base is more like Louis says. I think the SWP published some analysis of the leaked membership list to show they remained from the sections of society fascism has classically drawn from: ex-military, self-employed, small businessmen, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/mind-the-gap/comment-page-1/#comment-4394</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2086#comment-4394</guid>
		<description>Well, this is all true louis. But it is the BNP who are intimidating communities. It is the EDL and BNP who are demonstrating outside mosques, and it is racist thugs linked to the BNP who are attacking ethnic minorities. It is the growth and legitimising of the BNP that is giving confidence to the fascists who attacked a gay student in Birkenhead last week.

So excuse us for wanting to do something about them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, this is all true louis. But it is the BNP who are intimidating communities. It is the EDL and BNP who are demonstrating outside mosques, and it is racist thugs linked to the BNP who are attacking ethnic minorities. It is the growth and legitimising of the BNP that is giving confidence to the fascists who attacked a gay student in Birkenhead last week.</p>
<p>So excuse us for wanting to do something about them.</p>
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		<title>By: louis</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/mind-the-gap/comment-page-1/#comment-4393</link>
		<dc:creator>louis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2086#comment-4393</guid>
		<description>The idea that the BNP is somehow worse than the mainstream political parties is an interesting delusion. It&#039;s not the BNP who are introducing anti terrorist laws .It&#039;s not the BNP who introduce laws that would not have been tolerated even in Hitler&#039;s Germany. The BNP have not banned free speech or made strikes practicall illegal....

   The BNP are thugs but amature one&#039;s compared to those who every day pass ever more repressive laws..
......in the meantime those folks who made the gass for killing jews are still in business and are doing very well thank you and thanks to the &#039;mainstream political parties&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The idea that the BNP is somehow worse than the mainstream political parties is an interesting delusion. It&#8217;s not the BNP who are introducing anti terrorist laws .It&#8217;s not the BNP who introduce laws that would not have been tolerated even in Hitler&#8217;s Germany. The BNP have not banned free speech or made strikes practicall illegal&#8230;.</p>
<p>   The BNP are thugs but amature one&#8217;s compared to those who every day pass ever more repressive laws..<br />
&#8230;&#8230;in the meantime those folks who made the gass for killing jews are still in business and are doing very well thank you and thanks to the &#8216;mainstream political parties&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Salman Shaheen</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/mind-the-gap/comment-page-1/#comment-4387</link>
		<dc:creator>Salman Shaheen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 00:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2086#comment-4387</guid>
		<description>Louis, I&#039;m sorry, I forgot we were still living in the mid-twentieth century. Really, it is our fault for publishing an article about a modern political issue. We won&#039;t do it again, honest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Louis, I&#8217;m sorry, I forgot we were still living in the mid-twentieth century. Really, it is our fault for publishing an article about a modern political issue. We won&#8217;t do it again, honest.</p>
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		<title>By: louis</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/mind-the-gap/comment-page-1/#comment-4386</link>
		<dc:creator>louis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 23:53:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2086#comment-4386</guid>
		<description>Fascism is a product of the middle class. Contrary to popular prejudice the working class have never supported it. It is the middle class who at times of recession and with much to loose turn to Fascism to protect what they have. 

 It is the middle class who vote for anti free speech laws . it&#039;s the middle class who prosper on mass immigration . it&#039;s the middle class who with one foot on the property ladder and with some immigrant to do the dirty work are the first to point to the great unwashed with an acusing finger. The danger does not come from the poorer neighbourhoods and never has...

  Ironically , the more educated/ prosperous  a man is the more likely he is to turn to the right to protect his position / status /class..The press and media are only too happy to point to the BNP in the hope that people will forget exactly who it was that actually made the gas ovens and prospered on slave labour and then went on to establish the Coal and Steel Community (EU).....
  If people spent quarter the time they spend railing against the BNP reading the immediate post war history of Europe they might realise that the real Fascist threat was not from the working class and (for very good reason ) never will come from the working class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascism is a product of the middle class. Contrary to popular prejudice the working class have never supported it. It is the middle class who at times of recession and with much to loose turn to Fascism to protect what they have. </p>
<p> It is the middle class who vote for anti free speech laws . it&#8217;s the middle class who prosper on mass immigration . it&#8217;s the middle class who with one foot on the property ladder and with some immigrant to do the dirty work are the first to point to the great unwashed with an acusing finger. The danger does not come from the poorer neighbourhoods and never has&#8230;</p>
<p>  Ironically , the more educated/ prosperous  a man is the more likely he is to turn to the right to protect his position / status /class..The press and media are only too happy to point to the BNP in the hope that people will forget exactly who it was that actually made the gas ovens and prospered on slave labour and then went on to establish the Coal and Steel Community (EU)&#8230;..<br />
  If people spent quarter the time they spend railing against the BNP reading the immediate post war history of Europe they might realise that the real Fascist threat was not from the working class and (for very good reason ) never will come from the working class.</p>
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		<title>By: EddM</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/mind-the-gap/comment-page-1/#comment-4164</link>
		<dc:creator>EddM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2086#comment-4164</guid>
		<description>The problem with the liberal argument that the BNP should be allowed onto Question Time, is that it assumes Question Time is a debating programme rather than a bunch of hapless individuals slinging soundbites at each other. In this sense, the BNP would fit in well. Its format means you can pretty much make uncorroborated statements and get away with it. Since this is the case, if we were in a position where the BBC refused to back down over giving the BNP a slot, I wouldn&#039;t oppose someone from the Left going on to fight the BNP&#039;s &quot;arguments&quot;. Otherwise they&#039;d just be getting free airtime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with the liberal argument that the BNP should be allowed onto Question Time, is that it assumes Question Time is a debating programme rather than a bunch of hapless individuals slinging soundbites at each other. In this sense, the BNP would fit in well. Its format means you can pretty much make uncorroborated statements and get away with it. Since this is the case, if we were in a position where the BBC refused to back down over giving the BNP a slot, I wouldn&#8217;t oppose someone from the Left going on to fight the BNP&#8217;s &#8220;arguments&#8221;. Otherwise they&#8217;d just be getting free airtime.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/mind-the-gap/comment-page-1/#comment-4149</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 15:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2086#comment-4149</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;So when on the doorsteps John Denham says ‘immigrants aren’t stopping you getting a council house’, he can hardly follow up with, ‘it’s the government’s chronic neglect of council housing’.&lt;/i&gt;
Indeed!Dan, I wish I could remember when and where I formed my impression of the background of BNP voters.Also,mea culpa,I think I&#039;ve been guilty of sloppy reading with this article and it&#039;s general slant.However,I don&#039;t agree with the point Liz makes about the value of Griffin getting pwned on Question Time.Question Time is a panel game,and the point Liz makes about the fillip the media are quite tranparently giving the BNP should be explored in depth.The producers of Question Time choose who Griffin goes up against,remember that.Why are the media giving the BNP a boost?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>So when on the doorsteps John Denham says ‘immigrants aren’t stopping you getting a council house’, he can hardly follow up with, ‘it’s the government’s chronic neglect of council housing’.</i><br />
Indeed!Dan, I wish I could remember when and where I formed my impression of the background of BNP voters.Also,mea culpa,I think I&#8217;ve been guilty of sloppy reading with this article and it&#8217;s general slant.However,I don&#8217;t agree with the point Liz makes about the value of Griffin getting pwned on Question Time.Question Time is a panel game,and the point Liz makes about the fillip the media are quite tranparently giving the BNP should be explored in depth.The producers of Question Time choose who Griffin goes up against,remember that.Why are the media giving the BNP a boost?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/mind-the-gap/comment-page-1/#comment-4147</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 14:10:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2086#comment-4147</guid>
		<description>Clearly I meant Question Time, but Newsnight too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clearly I meant Question Time, but Newsnight too!</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/mind-the-gap/comment-page-1/#comment-4146</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 14:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2086#comment-4146</guid>
		<description>As you say, demolish or engage, Newsnight isn&#039;t the place, actually the place is on the doorsteps. The No Platform argument often becomes ludicrously caricatured as sticking our fingers in our ears and going la-la-la-la. Of course its not, we have to expose and challenge the BNP&#039;s lies with the people who they are appealling to. But where Labour, and other groups, have disappeared from the ground it ends up being exactly that. 
Of course Labour have another problem. They have been pursuing a strategy of either ignoring or pandering to much of this stuff. So when on the doorsteps John Denham says &#039;immigrants aren&#039;t stopping you getting a council house&#039;, he can hardly follow up with, &#039;it&#039;s the government&#039;s chronic neglect of council housing&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As you say, demolish or engage, Newsnight isn&#8217;t the place, actually the place is on the doorsteps. The No Platform argument often becomes ludicrously caricatured as sticking our fingers in our ears and going la-la-la-la. Of course its not, we have to expose and challenge the BNP&#8217;s lies with the people who they are appealling to. But where Labour, and other groups, have disappeared from the ground it ends up being exactly that.<br />
Of course Labour have another problem. They have been pursuing a strategy of either ignoring or pandering to much of this stuff. So when on the doorsteps John Denham says &#8216;immigrants aren&#8217;t stopping you getting a council house&#8217;, he can hardly follow up with, &#8216;it&#8217;s the government&#8217;s chronic neglect of council housing&#8217;.</p>
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