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	<title>Comments on: Why capital punishment is wrong, but its opponents are too</title>
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	<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/why-capital-punishment-is-wrong-but-its-opponents-are-too/</link>
	<description>What Is The Third Estate? Everything. What Has It Been Until Now In The Political Order? Nothing. What Does It Want To Be? Something.</description>
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		<title>By: mike mabry</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/why-capital-punishment-is-wrong-but-its-opponents-are-too/comment-page-1/#comment-65562</link>
		<dc:creator>mike mabry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2172#comment-65562</guid>
		<description>this is a bunch of crap and u all need to get a lif and a job</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this is a bunch of crap and u all need to get a lif and a job</p>
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		<title>By: Ricardo</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/why-capital-punishment-is-wrong-but-its-opponents-are-too/comment-page-1/#comment-32448</link>
		<dc:creator>Ricardo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Feb 2011 13:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Most countries that have abolished capital punishment have less murders than the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most countries that have abolished capital punishment have less murders than the US.</p>
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		<title>By: derick</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/why-capital-punishment-is-wrong-but-its-opponents-are-too/comment-page-1/#comment-26383</link>
		<dc:creator>derick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Nov 2010 02:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>i do agree with all of the readders comment writer too</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i do agree with all of the readders comment writer too</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Hirsch</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/why-capital-punishment-is-wrong-but-its-opponents-are-too/comment-page-1/#comment-21027</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Hirsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2010 21:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Good, smart piece! Bravo! I&#039;d add one more demurrer on the side of prohibiting capital punishment. Here in the US (and presumably in the UK, too) there is no equal justice under the law. Both the US prison population&#039;s composition and those on death row are overwhelmingly people of color (read: social class matters) and working class whites (ditto.) Until justice truly is blind and all have access to an excellent defence --and I&#039;m not holding my breath-- state killings will remain selective. Bad enough that incarceration is weighted against the poor, but as long as murder as state-sanctioned punishment is dispensed inequitably, it&#039;s a monstrously discriminating practice that must be outlawed. Will there be capital punishment under socialism? That&#039;s for those generations to decide, but I think they&#039;ll likely take vengence out of the equation and be in a position to redefine what constitutes crime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good, smart piece! Bravo! I&#8217;d add one more demurrer on the side of prohibiting capital punishment. Here in the US (and presumably in the UK, too) there is no equal justice under the law. Both the US prison population&#8217;s composition and those on death row are overwhelmingly people of color (read: social class matters) and working class whites (ditto.) Until justice truly is blind and all have access to an excellent defence &#8211;and I&#8217;m not holding my breath&#8211; state killings will remain selective. Bad enough that incarceration is weighted against the poor, but as long as murder as state-sanctioned punishment is dispensed inequitably, it&#8217;s a monstrously discriminating practice that must be outlawed. Will there be capital punishment under socialism? That&#8217;s for those generations to decide, but I think they&#8217;ll likely take vengence out of the equation and be in a position to redefine what constitutes crime.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex H</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/why-capital-punishment-is-wrong-but-its-opponents-are-too/comment-page-1/#comment-5853</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Dec 2009 16:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2172#comment-5853</guid>
		<description>Without needing to invoke, admittedly dubious, conceptions like justice there is a very simple argument against capital punishment. 
It is never legitemate to take someone&#039;s life from them unless you are in a situation where greater harm is prevented by so doing (armed police/war etc). 
No harm is prevented by capital punishment. (given the case about deterrance is not proved either way) 
Far greater harm is caused by capital punishment particularly since it precludes any possibility of redemption and assumes that no positive use could have been made of the life that is now being taken. 

Furthermore, given the injust behaviour of most modern states as well as their general illegitemacy - what really distinguishes capital &#039;punishment&#039; from mere revenge killings?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without needing to invoke, admittedly dubious, conceptions like justice there is a very simple argument against capital punishment.<br />
It is never legitemate to take someone&#8217;s life from them unless you are in a situation where greater harm is prevented by so doing (armed police/war etc).<br />
No harm is prevented by capital punishment. (given the case about deterrance is not proved either way)<br />
Far greater harm is caused by capital punishment particularly since it precludes any possibility of redemption and assumes that no positive use could have been made of the life that is now being taken. </p>
<p>Furthermore, given the injust behaviour of most modern states as well as their general illegitemacy &#8211; what really distinguishes capital &#8216;punishment&#8217; from mere revenge killings?</p>
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		<title>By: Owen</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/why-capital-punishment-is-wrong-but-its-opponents-are-too/comment-page-1/#comment-4241</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 20:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2172#comment-4241</guid>
		<description>I think I broadly agree with the points Tendai&#039;s made, though I&#039;m generally very dubious about utilitarianism despite being a consequentialist. Just one minor point, though - if we&#039;re being at all consequentialist about criminal justice, then victims&#039; (or their relatives&#039;) desire for justice *should* surely be given some weight too. Probably not that much in the grand scheme of things, but some. Just throwing that out there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I broadly agree with the points Tendai&#8217;s made, though I&#8217;m generally very dubious about utilitarianism despite being a consequentialist. Just one minor point, though &#8211; if we&#8217;re being at all consequentialist about criminal justice, then victims&#8217; (or their relatives&#8217;) desire for justice *should* surely be given some weight too. Probably not that much in the grand scheme of things, but some. Just throwing that out there.</p>
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		<title>By: Tendai</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/why-capital-punishment-is-wrong-but-its-opponents-are-too/comment-page-1/#comment-4238</link>
		<dc:creator>Tendai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 18:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2172#comment-4238</guid>
		<description>Salman,

My views here are more focussed on the philosophical problems that opponents would have to get over in order to succeed, rather than advocating we should actually have the DP. If we are to take moral imperatives seriously (&#039;do not kill&#039;) we should minimise the excuses we use to contravene them. I wouldn&#039;t actually want such a punishment as part of our justice system, but in a purely philosophical sense, it seems to me that some of the anti arguments just happen to be bad arguments even if I agree with their conclusions. 

Turning to your last statement, do you not think a distinction can be made between justice on the whim of the people, and harsh punishments but through consistent, thorough, even objective state institutions? In other words, capital punishment could be exercised just as legitimately as any other punishment, without getting the mob involved. Also, I think you make the point that death is &#039;vengeful&#039;, but, I&#039;m not sure that other punishments should be automatically ennobled by being presumed to be free from vengeance: &quot;I Hope s/he rots in jail!&quot; seems pretty vengeful to me. Furthermore, it could well be wondered whether removing justice from the whims of the people necessarily substitutes a less harsh justice just because the operations of the state are capable of being consistent and detached. One of the chilling aspects of capital punihsment, to me, is just how clinical and detached it actually can be.

So some of the arguments against captial punishment seem to be begging the question without acknowledging or realising it. I can&#039;t help but feel that if one is to be intellectually honest, the DP should be argued around, from the same ground as other punishments, rather than against, by various forms of special pleading from vague notions of wrong and justice. This, and I think you said it earlier, calls for questions on what we actually want (and what we really don&#039;t want) out of a system of public punishment. I don&#039;t want the state killing people, but I&#039;d shy from appealing to special moral authority to support that view.

The arguments that I tend to find convincing are those that argue for &#039;punishments preferable to death&#039;, rather than relying on the logical sleight of hand that death is somehow an inherently less legitimate form of punishment than imprisoning somebody for life.

As an aside, I think there are lots of more useful and efficient forms of state sanction than prison (and capital punishment probably isn&#039;t one of them).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Salman,</p>
<p>My views here are more focussed on the philosophical problems that opponents would have to get over in order to succeed, rather than advocating we should actually have the DP. If we are to take moral imperatives seriously (&#8216;do not kill&#8217;) we should minimise the excuses we use to contravene them. I wouldn&#8217;t actually want such a punishment as part of our justice system, but in a purely philosophical sense, it seems to me that some of the anti arguments just happen to be bad arguments even if I agree with their conclusions. </p>
<p>Turning to your last statement, do you not think a distinction can be made between justice on the whim of the people, and harsh punishments but through consistent, thorough, even objective state institutions? In other words, capital punishment could be exercised just as legitimately as any other punishment, without getting the mob involved. Also, I think you make the point that death is &#8216;vengeful&#8217;, but, I&#8217;m not sure that other punishments should be automatically ennobled by being presumed to be free from vengeance: &#8220;I Hope s/he rots in jail!&#8221; seems pretty vengeful to me. Furthermore, it could well be wondered whether removing justice from the whims of the people necessarily substitutes a less harsh justice just because the operations of the state are capable of being consistent and detached. One of the chilling aspects of capital punihsment, to me, is just how clinical and detached it actually can be.</p>
<p>So some of the arguments against captial punishment seem to be begging the question without acknowledging or realising it. I can&#8217;t help but feel that if one is to be intellectually honest, the DP should be argued around, from the same ground as other punishments, rather than against, by various forms of special pleading from vague notions of wrong and justice. This, and I think you said it earlier, calls for questions on what we actually want (and what we really don&#8217;t want) out of a system of public punishment. I don&#8217;t want the state killing people, but I&#8217;d shy from appealing to special moral authority to support that view.</p>
<p>The arguments that I tend to find convincing are those that argue for &#8216;punishments preferable to death&#8217;, rather than relying on the logical sleight of hand that death is somehow an inherently less legitimate form of punishment than imprisoning somebody for life.</p>
<p>As an aside, I think there are lots of more useful and efficient forms of state sanction than prison (and capital punishment probably isn&#8217;t one of them).</p>
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		<title>By: Salman Shaheen</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/why-capital-punishment-is-wrong-but-its-opponents-are-too/comment-page-1/#comment-4236</link>
		<dc:creator>Salman Shaheen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 16:24:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Tendai, I&#039;m going to have to take my hat off to your knowledge of Bentham. Naturally one has to judge each situation on its own merits. There are those for which reform is highly preferable - and I believe Bentham&#039;s panopticon was a primary tool of reform. There are others in which society simply would not be safe with an individual free amongst it and the only recourse is to separate them. But the only purpose the death penalty serves is to satisfy a societal desire for vengeance. Justice should never be submitted to the whims of the people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tendai, I&#8217;m going to have to take my hat off to your knowledge of Bentham. Naturally one has to judge each situation on its own merits. There are those for which reform is highly preferable &#8211; and I believe Bentham&#8217;s panopticon was a primary tool of reform. There are others in which society simply would not be safe with an individual free amongst it and the only recourse is to separate them. But the only purpose the death penalty serves is to satisfy a societal desire for vengeance. Justice should never be submitted to the whims of the people.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Baldwin</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/why-capital-punishment-is-wrong-but-its-opponents-are-too/comment-page-1/#comment-4232</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Baldwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2172#comment-4232</guid>
		<description>Since killing is such a terrible thing, I&#039;d say it&#039;s only justifiable if there is no alternative. If the police kill someone when there&#039;s no reasonable alternative, that&#039;s justified, but in the case of punishment for a crime there is always the alternative of prison.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since killing is such a terrible thing, I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s only justifiable if there is no alternative. If the police kill someone when there&#8217;s no reasonable alternative, that&#8217;s justified, but in the case of punishment for a crime there is always the alternative of prison.</p>
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		<title>By: Tendai</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/09/why-capital-punishment-is-wrong-but-its-opponents-are-too/comment-page-1/#comment-4220</link>
		<dc:creator>Tendai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 23:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2172#comment-4220</guid>
		<description>Salman,

I&#039;d say justice serves all of those purposes. It&#039;s hard to escape the conclusion that we&#039;re simply trying to justify what we already do (and want to do), when speaking of justice as though it&#039;s some abstract product of pure reason: such a concept of justice would be &quot;nonsense on stilts&quot;, in Bentham&#039;s words. Following from this, I don&#039;t think there is any logical way of sort of &#039;discovering&#039; the foundational requirements of justice (though reasoning its applications can be done entirely through deductive argument), as I think we stumble on the is-ought problem pretty quickly if we were to try and make any claims of that nature. In other words, the question, &quot;what does justice [or punishment] demand, generally&quot; is less reducible than the question &quot;what does justice [or punishment] demand of this particular situation&quot;. That&#039;s why I think a preference-ultility argument is the most successful when arguing against the DP (or any punishment at all).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Salman,</p>
<p>I&#8217;d say justice serves all of those purposes. It&#8217;s hard to escape the conclusion that we&#8217;re simply trying to justify what we already do (and want to do), when speaking of justice as though it&#8217;s some abstract product of pure reason: such a concept of justice would be &#8220;nonsense on stilts&#8221;, in Bentham&#8217;s words. Following from this, I don&#8217;t think there is any logical way of sort of &#8216;discovering&#8217; the foundational requirements of justice (though reasoning its applications can be done entirely through deductive argument), as I think we stumble on the is-ought problem pretty quickly if we were to try and make any claims of that nature. In other words, the question, &#8220;what does justice [or punishment] demand, generally&#8221; is less reducible than the question &#8220;what does justice [or punishment] demand of this particular situation&#8221;. That&#8217;s why I think a preference-ultility argument is the most successful when arguing against the DP (or any punishment at all).</p>
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