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	<title>Comments on: On Cornel West</title>
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	<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/10/on-cornel-west/</link>
	<description>What Is The Third Estate? Everything. What Has It Been Until Now In The Political Order? Nothing. What Does It Want To Be? Something.</description>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/10/on-cornel-west/comment-page-1/#comment-4819</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2542#comment-4819</guid>
		<description>Wey-heyyyyyyyyyyyyy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wey-heyyyyyyyyyyyyy</p>
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		<title>By: Salman Shaheen</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/10/on-cornel-west/comment-page-1/#comment-4793</link>
		<dc:creator>Salman Shaheen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:51:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2542#comment-4793</guid>
		<description>&quot;You have given me a lot to swallow there Tendai&quot;
- That&#039;s what she said!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You have given me a lot to swallow there Tendai&#8221;<br />
- That&#8217;s what she said!</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/10/on-cornel-west/comment-page-1/#comment-4792</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:13:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2542#comment-4792</guid>
		<description>You have given me a lot to swallow there Tendai, much of which I think could be re-written into a perfectly good blog post, maybe even here. I feel like we have taken the finer points a little too far, but as we are on the subject, I think there is a time for the speculative philosophy which we are talking about, and I can see their contribution to real life. Your definitions seem to be totally correct, although a distinction should be made (and, I repeat, not to belittle any strand of philosophy) between the philosophies which give us first-hand answers into real-life, such as is A.C. Grayling&#039;s job in this country for example, who often lectures on national repsonsibility, market responsibility, ethics and war, that sort of thing, and philosophies that emanate from subjective matters and so on, continental philosophy, though not limited to this. 

Though there is no distinction between importance of head-wanking and ethics based philosophies, if those head-wanking philosophies do answer legitimate questions as well, there is a distinction in what strand of philosophy they emerge from. The obvious way, for me at least, to distinguish these two strands is by referring one to philosophy, and the other to political philosophy. There may be problems with the terminology - that surely is not my fault - but these categorical distinctions seem to me pretty tight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have given me a lot to swallow there Tendai, much of which I think could be re-written into a perfectly good blog post, maybe even here. I feel like we have taken the finer points a little too far, but as we are on the subject, I think there is a time for the speculative philosophy which we are talking about, and I can see their contribution to real life. Your definitions seem to be totally correct, although a distinction should be made (and, I repeat, not to belittle any strand of philosophy) between the philosophies which give us first-hand answers into real-life, such as is A.C. Grayling&#8217;s job in this country for example, who often lectures on national repsonsibility, market responsibility, ethics and war, that sort of thing, and philosophies that emanate from subjective matters and so on, continental philosophy, though not limited to this. </p>
<p>Though there is no distinction between importance of head-wanking and ethics based philosophies, if those head-wanking philosophies do answer legitimate questions as well, there is a distinction in what strand of philosophy they emerge from. The obvious way, for me at least, to distinguish these two strands is by referring one to philosophy, and the other to political philosophy. There may be problems with the terminology &#8211; that surely is not my fault &#8211; but these categorical distinctions seem to me pretty tight.</p>
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		<title>By: Tendai</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/10/on-cornel-west/comment-page-1/#comment-4759</link>
		<dc:creator>Tendai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2542#comment-4759</guid>
		<description>Oh right, I understand what you&#039;re saying now, but now I think I also disagree. It&#039;s possible we may have different concepts of what philosophy is. I tend to think, in agreement with philosophers of the analytic tradition, that there is no &#039;purely philosophical&#039; subject matter. Philosophy being, to my mind, a mode of inquiry relying on reason and first principles, rather than being &#039;about&#039; specific concerns. An activity rather than a subject, if you will. As such, I have difficuty seeing philosophy as having categories that have any taxanomical significance other than that of conveniently dividing intellectual labour. Thus, the labels we give to various strands of philosophical inquiry -- moral, political, existential -- are merely convenient ways of dividing the labour among philosophers, of investigating various epistemological concerns. The division of philosophy into these branches is therefore, I&#039;d argue, artificial, if useful.

I also wonder whether we should be so quick to reject what you refer to as speculative philosophy (by which I assume you mean idealist philosophy, and metaphysics). I think that even though some philosophical issues and questions look like head-wanking, *good* philosophical inquiry is useful for the following reasons:
1) Conclusions we arrive at in &#039;speculative&#039; philosophy inform our reasoning about other, real-life concerns. So, for example, brains-in-vats thought experiments may give illuminating insights into, say, understanding the minds of others, and thus giving us useful things to consider when communicating thoughts to others.
2) Speculative moral or political philosophy may also give us normative aspirations. So, it is true that (using Nozick as an example) a particular theory of justice or the ideal society or the Good Life may serve little immediate purpose, but may indeed set a normative aspiration for politicians and individuals. The influence of Hayek (and Nozick) on the new right, for example, is pretty evident I think.
3) Also, do you not think that some useless-seeming thought experiments and philosophical bodies of thought, may serve to test the implications of believing something? In other words, because we act on our beliefs, and  desire clarity in our beliefs, it seems useful to me to test the implications of beliefs through such speculative philosophising.
4) Even philosophers I&#039;m not crazy about (Hegel and Heidegger for example -- I&#039;m not keen on either their ideas or their philosophic methods), though their philosophy may not ultimately be getting at any practical &#039;truth&#039;, give us useful ways of looking at the world. I&#039;m a metaphysical nihilist and think that in the absence of any real metaphysical &#039;things&#039; we&#039;re at a most disheartening dead end when it comes to making sense of experience. As such, certain fictions and asbtractions may give us some guidance in terms of how best to make sense of an otherwise inchoate mass of data and experience. In this respect, speculative philosophy has the effect of organising experience and data into usably coherent entities. Even if it is just stuff of the mind.

Yet I do share your suspicion of some kinds of philosophising: much of what is labelled philosophy is of questionable worth as a contribution to reason-based inquiry. I&#039;m generally spusicious of the extravagant theories-of-everything (and anything!) that continental philosophy tends to aspire to (ok that&#039;s an exaggeration and maybe a caraicature of Cont. Phil., but I hope you get my drift). I hope I haven&#039;t misstated your position in making these observations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh right, I understand what you&#8217;re saying now, but now I think I also disagree. It&#8217;s possible we may have different concepts of what philosophy is. I tend to think, in agreement with philosophers of the analytic tradition, that there is no &#8216;purely philosophical&#8217; subject matter. Philosophy being, to my mind, a mode of inquiry relying on reason and first principles, rather than being &#8216;about&#8217; specific concerns. An activity rather than a subject, if you will. As such, I have difficuty seeing philosophy as having categories that have any taxanomical significance other than that of conveniently dividing intellectual labour. Thus, the labels we give to various strands of philosophical inquiry &#8212; moral, political, existential &#8212; are merely convenient ways of dividing the labour among philosophers, of investigating various epistemological concerns. The division of philosophy into these branches is therefore, I&#8217;d argue, artificial, if useful.</p>
<p>I also wonder whether we should be so quick to reject what you refer to as speculative philosophy (by which I assume you mean idealist philosophy, and metaphysics). I think that even though some philosophical issues and questions look like head-wanking, *good* philosophical inquiry is useful for the following reasons:<br />
1) Conclusions we arrive at in &#8217;speculative&#8217; philosophy inform our reasoning about other, real-life concerns. So, for example, brains-in-vats thought experiments may give illuminating insights into, say, understanding the minds of others, and thus giving us useful things to consider when communicating thoughts to others.<br />
2) Speculative moral or political philosophy may also give us normative aspirations. So, it is true that (using Nozick as an example) a particular theory of justice or the ideal society or the Good Life may serve little immediate purpose, but may indeed set a normative aspiration for politicians and individuals. The influence of Hayek (and Nozick) on the new right, for example, is pretty evident I think.<br />
3) Also, do you not think that some useless-seeming thought experiments and philosophical bodies of thought, may serve to test the implications of believing something? In other words, because we act on our beliefs, and  desire clarity in our beliefs, it seems useful to me to test the implications of beliefs through such speculative philosophising.<br />
4) Even philosophers I&#8217;m not crazy about (Hegel and Heidegger for example &#8212; I&#8217;m not keen on either their ideas or their philosophic methods), though their philosophy may not ultimately be getting at any practical &#8216;truth&#8217;, give us useful ways of looking at the world. I&#8217;m a metaphysical nihilist and think that in the absence of any real metaphysical &#8216;things&#8217; we&#8217;re at a most disheartening dead end when it comes to making sense of experience. As such, certain fictions and asbtractions may give us some guidance in terms of how best to make sense of an otherwise inchoate mass of data and experience. In this respect, speculative philosophy has the effect of organising experience and data into usably coherent entities. Even if it is just stuff of the mind.</p>
<p>Yet I do share your suspicion of some kinds of philosophising: much of what is labelled philosophy is of questionable worth as a contribution to reason-based inquiry. I&#8217;m generally spusicious of the extravagant theories-of-everything (and anything!) that continental philosophy tends to aspire to (ok that&#8217;s an exaggeration and maybe a caraicature of Cont. Phil., but I hope you get my drift). I hope I haven&#8217;t misstated your position in making these observations.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/10/on-cornel-west/comment-page-1/#comment-4757</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 21:04:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2542#comment-4757</guid>
		<description>oooo I&#039;ve opened something up here haven&#039;t I. Political philosophy is a branch of philosophy, but when I talk of philosophy proper, I mean to say philosophy specifically, not branches of philosophy for example political philosophy. There are, within philosophy, categories which are purely speculative, which caused Marx to opine that famous quip about masturbation being to sex what philosophy is to real life. This type of philosophy is the type which cannot be of any real help to the political sciences. I&#039;m sure its slightly personal which philosophy fits into this category of speculative, but for me Cartesian philosophy is this, not to mention much other idealist philosophies, though not all of them (Hobbes, Hegel being two exceptions I can think of right now).

Philosophy proper is not a slur, I just mean it as the discipline in-itself, not one of many of its derivatives, such as political philosophy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oooo I&#8217;ve opened something up here haven&#8217;t I. Political philosophy is a branch of philosophy, but when I talk of philosophy proper, I mean to say philosophy specifically, not branches of philosophy for example political philosophy. There are, within philosophy, categories which are purely speculative, which caused Marx to opine that famous quip about masturbation being to sex what philosophy is to real life. This type of philosophy is the type which cannot be of any real help to the political sciences. I&#8217;m sure its slightly personal which philosophy fits into this category of speculative, but for me Cartesian philosophy is this, not to mention much other idealist philosophies, though not all of them (Hobbes, Hegel being two exceptions I can think of right now).</p>
<p>Philosophy proper is not a slur, I just mean it as the discipline in-itself, not one of many of its derivatives, such as political philosophy.</p>
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		<title>By: Tendai</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/10/on-cornel-west/comment-page-1/#comment-4756</link>
		<dc:creator>Tendai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:42:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2542#comment-4756</guid>
		<description>I tend to associate Nozick with Anarchy, State and Utopia (though yes, philosophers proper will value his work on epistemology, whereas political theorits may dwell more on the political stuff). Anyway, I&#039;m not really sure why political philosophy should be seen as a different body of concerns to the rest of philosophy&#039;s concerns. I&#039;m also not sure what you speak of when you mention &quot;philosophy that&#039;s too speculative to be called politically committed&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to associate Nozick with Anarchy, State and Utopia (though yes, philosophers proper will value his work on epistemology, whereas political theorits may dwell more on the political stuff). Anyway, I&#8217;m not really sure why political philosophy should be seen as a different body of concerns to the rest of philosophy&#8217;s concerns. I&#8217;m also not sure what you speak of when you mention &#8220;philosophy that&#8217;s too speculative to be called politically committed&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Owen</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/10/on-cornel-west/comment-page-1/#comment-4746</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2542#comment-4746</guid>
		<description>Eh, I don&#039;t blame you for being cautious. I can be pretty intimidating when I put my mind to it. (Yep, all nine stone and five foot seven of me - truly terrifying...)

How does the fact that some philosophy is too speculative to be called political philosophy entail that political philosophy isn&#039;t proper philosophy? I&#039;m confused.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eh, I don&#8217;t blame you for being cautious. I can be pretty intimidating when I put my mind to it. (Yep, all nine stone and five foot seven of me &#8211; truly terrifying&#8230;)</p>
<p>How does the fact that some philosophy is too speculative to be called political philosophy entail that political philosophy isn&#8217;t proper philosophy? I&#8217;m confused.</p>
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		<title>By: Carl</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/10/on-cornel-west/comment-page-1/#comment-4732</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2542#comment-4732</guid>
		<description>Oh I am sorry Salman, what&#039;s that old faux saying meek and rubbish...

Owen, really now, there is philosophy that is too speculative to be called politically committed.

And I wish you&#039;d told me you were&#039;t being entirely serious, I&#039;ve changed the locks on the doors now...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh I am sorry Salman, what&#8217;s that old faux saying meek and rubbish&#8230;</p>
<p>Owen, really now, there is philosophy that is too speculative to be called politically committed.</p>
<p>And I wish you&#8217;d told me you were&#8217;t being entirely serious, I&#8217;ve changed the locks on the doors now&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Owen</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/10/on-cornel-west/comment-page-1/#comment-4726</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2542#comment-4726</guid>
		<description>Well, you did ask...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, you did ask&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Salman Shaheen</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/10/on-cornel-west/comment-page-1/#comment-4725</link>
		<dc:creator>Salman Shaheen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=2542#comment-4725</guid>
		<description>:-(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> <img src='http://thethirdestate.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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