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	<title>Comments on: TaxPayers&#8217; Alliance in &#8216;not totally wrong&#8217; shock</title>
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	<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/taxpayers-alliance-in-not-totally-wrong-shock/</link>
	<description>What Is The Third Estate? Everything. What Has It Been Until Now In The Political Order? Nothing. What Does It Want To Be? Something.</description>
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		<title>By: Top Blogging for the 9th December &#171; Left Outside</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/taxpayers-alliance-in-not-totally-wrong-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-5919</link>
		<dc:creator>Top Blogging for the 9th December &#171; Left Outside</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 11:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3167#comment-5919</guid>
		<description>[...] Owen at The Third Estate claims that the Tax Payer&#8217;s Alliance are not always wrong. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Owen at The Third Estate claims that the Tax Payer&#8217;s Alliance are not always wrong. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Owain</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/taxpayers-alliance-in-not-totally-wrong-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-5905</link>
		<dc:creator>Owain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3167#comment-5905</guid>
		<description>Dave, I quite agree with you, and I am appalled by Brown&#039;s attempt to hide his horendous debt off balance-sheet by using PFI. Tho book-cooking cunt. Fiscal prudence my arse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, I quite agree with you, and I am appalled by Brown&#8217;s attempt to hide his horendous debt off balance-sheet by using PFI. Tho book-cooking cunt. Fiscal prudence my arse.</p>
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		<title>By: Owen</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/taxpayers-alliance-in-not-totally-wrong-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-5904</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3167#comment-5904</guid>
		<description>In response to Dave&#039;s first post:

I&#039;m not sure we&#039;re really in disagreement, except with regard to precisely what counts as &#039;in principle&#039;. I&#039;d argue that there&#039;s nothing inherent in money that makes economic inequality lead to other forms of inequality - it&#039;s an empirical fact about human societies that it does. What practical significance this distinction has on the policies we should adopt is probably pretty minimal.

In response to Reuben&#039;s marginal utility point:

True in most cases, though there are exceptions. But that&#039;s a point in favour of prioritarian redistribution, not egalitarian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Dave&#8217;s first post:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure we&#8217;re really in disagreement, except with regard to precisely what counts as &#8216;in principle&#8217;. I&#8217;d argue that there&#8217;s nothing inherent in money that makes economic inequality lead to other forms of inequality &#8211; it&#8217;s an empirical fact about human societies that it does. What practical significance this distinction has on the policies we should adopt is probably pretty minimal.</p>
<p>In response to Reuben&#8217;s marginal utility point:</p>
<p>True in most cases, though there are exceptions. But that&#8217;s a point in favour of prioritarian redistribution, not egalitarian.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Semple</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/taxpayers-alliance-in-not-totally-wrong-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-5902</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Semple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3167#comment-5902</guid>
		<description>If that&#039;s your problem, then it should be the new structure of the civil and public services that should concern you.

Privatisation simply results in private companies trying to grab more money from the treasury honey pot rather than each department trying to grab more money. At least the departments still directly employed by the government aren&#039;t trying to profit out of being lying, thieving, incompetent bastards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If that&#8217;s your problem, then it should be the new structure of the civil and public services that should concern you.</p>
<p>Privatisation simply results in private companies trying to grab more money from the treasury honey pot rather than each department trying to grab more money. At least the departments still directly employed by the government aren&#8217;t trying to profit out of being lying, thieving, incompetent bastards.</p>
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		<title>By: Owain</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/taxpayers-alliance-in-not-totally-wrong-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-5899</link>
		<dc:creator>Owain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3167#comment-5899</guid>
		<description>Off on a tangent somewhat, it&#039;s not so much the salaries of high level public servants going up that concerns me. Far more, is what I percieve as the widespread sense that delivering value for money in the services provided is just not a priority, but trying to justify as much funding as possible, to grow the size and budget of departments. 

I&#039;m not claiming this is a conspiracy or anything, just a culture that has spread in a somewhat memetic evolution kind-of-way, with the departments best at justifying extra money expanding faster than the others. And of course, it takes a brave civil servant to say &quot; Hey Guys, if we can do this in a more efficient way, there won&#039;t need to be as many of us, and some of us will be made redundant. Let&#039;s go!&quot; 

All of which increases the public spending, which then means more taxation, and taking money from people to fund it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Off on a tangent somewhat, it&#8217;s not so much the salaries of high level public servants going up that concerns me. Far more, is what I percieve as the widespread sense that delivering value for money in the services provided is just not a priority, but trying to justify as much funding as possible, to grow the size and budget of departments. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not claiming this is a conspiracy or anything, just a culture that has spread in a somewhat memetic evolution kind-of-way, with the departments best at justifying extra money expanding faster than the others. And of course, it takes a brave civil servant to say &#8221; Hey Guys, if we can do this in a more efficient way, there won&#8217;t need to be as many of us, and some of us will be made redundant. Let&#8217;s go!&#8221; </p>
<p>All of which increases the public spending, which then means more taxation, and taking money from people to fund it.</p>
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		<title>By: Reuben</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/taxpayers-alliance-in-not-totally-wrong-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-5894</link>
		<dc:creator>Reuben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3167#comment-5894</guid>
		<description>There is also  of course a basic utilitarian argument for equality: namely as your earnings increase the marginal utility you derive from evach pound decreases. Put another way if you took £50 off a millionaire and gave to a pauper, the increase in living standards experience by the pauper would outweigh the reduction in living standards experienced by the millionaire</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is also  of course a basic utilitarian argument for equality: namely as your earnings increase the marginal utility you derive from evach pound decreases. Put another way if you took £50 off a millionaire and gave to a pauper, the increase in living standards experience by the pauper would outweigh the reduction in living standards experienced by the millionaire</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Semple</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/taxpayers-alliance-in-not-totally-wrong-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-5890</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Semple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3167#comment-5890</guid>
		<description>@Jon, yes, you can cite all the business going on in a country as benefitting from the State functions - police, justice system, defence etc. Yet these are tiny costs compared to the largest expenditures of the State - social services, education and health.

Do these benefit the capitalist economy? Well, that&#039;s an open question. But there&#039;s a fair point to make (using your &quot;cui bono?&quot; reasoning) that if those responsible for the transactions being taxed don&#039;t avail themselves of social services, state education or health, then they shouldn&#039;t have to pay.

This is the difficulty of assigning the cost according to who benefits. The reality is that the Left (including myself) don&#039;t care whether the measure we want benefits those paying the cost. You frame this as &quot;the majority&quot; in a democracy becoming a master-signifier, to borrow from Lacan/Zizek. 

I frame it as an exercise in class power; these measures benefit the working class, who are the basis for all production and profit, therefore those who own production and profit should be made to pay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jon, yes, you can cite all the business going on in a country as benefitting from the State functions &#8211; police, justice system, defence etc. Yet these are tiny costs compared to the largest expenditures of the State &#8211; social services, education and health.</p>
<p>Do these benefit the capitalist economy? Well, that&#8217;s an open question. But there&#8217;s a fair point to make (using your &#8220;cui bono?&#8221; reasoning) that if those responsible for the transactions being taxed don&#8217;t avail themselves of social services, state education or health, then they shouldn&#8217;t have to pay.</p>
<p>This is the difficulty of assigning the cost according to who benefits. The reality is that the Left (including myself) don&#8217;t care whether the measure we want benefits those paying the cost. You frame this as &#8220;the majority&#8221; in a democracy becoming a master-signifier, to borrow from Lacan/Zizek. </p>
<p>I frame it as an exercise in class power; these measures benefit the working class, who are the basis for all production and profit, therefore those who own production and profit should be made to pay.</p>
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		<title>By: jon</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/taxpayers-alliance-in-not-totally-wrong-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-5885</link>
		<dc:creator>jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 07:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3167#comment-5885</guid>
		<description>@david semple - good point. i think transactions with no externalities can still be justifiably taxed due to the fact that the people engaged in that transaction still benefit from the state, which needs funding (not just roads but also police, a justice system etc). i could also side with the mob and say that they can be taxed because the majority have voted to make it so. democracy can be fun like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@david semple &#8211; good point. i think transactions with no externalities can still be justifiably taxed due to the fact that the people engaged in that transaction still benefit from the state, which needs funding (not just roads but also police, a justice system etc). i could also side with the mob and say that they can be taxed because the majority have voted to make it so. democracy can be fun like that.</p>
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		<title>By: Reuben</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/taxpayers-alliance-in-not-totally-wrong-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-5873</link>
		<dc:creator>Reuben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 12:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3167#comment-5873</guid>
		<description>*Agrees with David Semple on all counts*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*Agrees with David Semple on all counts*</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Semple</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/taxpayers-alliance-in-not-totally-wrong-shock/comment-page-1/#comment-5872</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Semple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 12:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3167#comment-5872</guid>
		<description>@Jon - surely, then, you&#039;re only talking about transactions which have demonstrable externalities? What about all the other transactions that are taxed?

@Owen, why is economic inequality not wrong in principle?

It&#039;s wrong in practice because economic inequality ultimately leads to the accumulation of private capital, by which the whole system of inequalities reproduces itself, right?

But isn&#039;t the disparity in individual earnings not just an epiphenomenon of this wider process, and therefore just as wrong in principle?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jon &#8211; surely, then, you&#8217;re only talking about transactions which have demonstrable externalities? What about all the other transactions that are taxed?</p>
<p>@Owen, why is economic inequality not wrong in principle?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s wrong in practice because economic inequality ultimately leads to the accumulation of private capital, by which the whole system of inequalities reproduces itself, right?</p>
<p>But isn&#8217;t the disparity in individual earnings not just an epiphenomenon of this wider process, and therefore just as wrong in principle?</p>
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