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	<title>Comments on: Why JFS&#8217;s arguments are a crock of shit</title>
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	<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/why-jfss-arguments-are-a-crock-of-shit/</link>
	<description>What Is The Third Estate? Everything. What Has It Been Until Now In The Political Order? Nothing. What Does It Want To Be? Something.</description>
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		<title>By: Berel Dov Lerner</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/why-jfss-arguments-are-a-crock-of-shit/comment-page-1/#comment-12776</link>
		<dc:creator>Berel Dov Lerner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3223#comment-12776</guid>
		<description>According to the author&#039;s logic, the USA is obviously a racist country because the children of American citizens living, say, in the UK are automatically granted US citizenship, while other Brits would have to go through a complicated legal process in order to gain citizenship.

Furthermore: the point of Jewish religious education is to instill in students a commitment to observe the commandments of the Torah. Judaism simply does not require or expect gentiles to observe those commandments.  Thus, there is exactly one situation in which it makes sense for gentiles to study in Jewish religious schools: when those students are preparing for conversion to Judaism, after which they will be obligated to observe the commandments of the Torah.  My conclusion: gentiles should be allowed to attend the Jewish schools, but those gentile children and their parents must understand that the explicit goal of such attendance is preparation for conversion. Such preparation would likely include special instruction geared towards meeting the requirements set by Jewish law courts for the acceptance of converts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to the author&#8217;s logic, the USA is obviously a racist country because the children of American citizens living, say, in the UK are automatically granted US citizenship, while other Brits would have to go through a complicated legal process in order to gain citizenship.</p>
<p>Furthermore: the point of Jewish religious education is to instill in students a commitment to observe the commandments of the Torah. Judaism simply does not require or expect gentiles to observe those commandments.  Thus, there is exactly one situation in which it makes sense for gentiles to study in Jewish religious schools: when those students are preparing for conversion to Judaism, after which they will be obligated to observe the commandments of the Torah.  My conclusion: gentiles should be allowed to attend the Jewish schools, but those gentile children and their parents must understand that the explicit goal of such attendance is preparation for conversion. Such preparation would likely include special instruction geared towards meeting the requirements set by Jewish law courts for the acceptance of converts.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/why-jfss-arguments-are-a-crock-of-shit/comment-page-1/#comment-6109</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 12:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It is a fair point that the boy&#039;s father&#039;s race would be irrelevant to the school, but refusing admission on the grounds of matrilineal ethnicity is against both the spirit and the wording of the Race Relations Act.  
There were a suprising number of third parties that had a vested interest in this case. It seems they could not bear a non-Jewish definition of who is Jewish being imposed on them. This is not what has happened- the ratio decidendi is merely that faith schools with discriminatory admissions policies need to be in line with the RRA. Nobody is saying the Orthodox Jewish community can no longer self govern.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a fair point that the boy&#8217;s father&#8217;s race would be irrelevant to the school, but refusing admission on the grounds of matrilineal ethnicity is against both the spirit and the wording of the Race Relations Act.<br />
There were a suprising number of third parties that had a vested interest in this case. It seems they could not bear a non-Jewish definition of who is Jewish being imposed on them. This is not what has happened- the ratio decidendi is merely that faith schools with discriminatory admissions policies need to be in line with the RRA. Nobody is saying the Orthodox Jewish community can no longer self govern.</p>
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		<title>By: Owen C</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/why-jfss-arguments-are-a-crock-of-shit/comment-page-1/#comment-6100</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 22:34:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3223#comment-6100</guid>
		<description>Jonathan Sacks is a cheef.  If you feel like a laugh get a book out of the library called &#039;The New Antisemitism&#039; and then read one of his contributions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan Sacks is a cheef.  If you feel like a laugh get a book out of the library called &#8216;The New Antisemitism&#8217; and then read one of his contributions.</p>
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		<title>By: Red Maria</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/why-jfss-arguments-are-a-crock-of-shit/comment-page-1/#comment-6097</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Maria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3223#comment-6097</guid>
		<description>First argument: the court has ruled that in future JFS will be able to give priority to Jewish applicants who meet the test of orthodoxy by religious practice; shul attendance, the keeping of a Kosher home and so forth. It has therefore applied a Christian definition of orthodox Judaism (in Christian schools committment to the faith is measured by infant baptism, regular Church attendance and involvement with the local parish) which Christians themselves consider inappropriate. Thus the state has usurped the function, properly belonging to a faith community, to define itself.

Second argument: The Chief Rabbi has not claimed to speak on behalf of Anglo Jewry, he has acted quite properly as the leader of the mainstream Othodox Jewish congregation. JFS is affiliated to United Synagogue, it is an orthodox Jewish school, Chief Rabbi Sacks teaches orthodox Judaism and leads his community. 

Third argument: Jewish parents, like parents of other faiths and none have the right to raise their children according to their own religious and/or philosophical principles. Hence, they are entitled to send their children to faith schools which are free at the point of access. To privatise faith schools would be to make it unduly burdensome for people to exercise their rights as well as render them available only to the super-rich. Faith schools are a right, not a privilege.

Contrary to your suggestions, faith schools are just as, if not more diverse than their non-denominational counterparts. Catholic schools, for example tend to be more ethnically-mixed than non-faith schools. Moreover all faith schools take in pupils from other faiths and none if there are places available. Faith schools, which are funded by their denominations as well as the state, prioritise applicants from their own denominations if they are oversubscribed. If you object to this practice, the solution is not to demand the restriction of religious rights or forcing the education of children in secular schools but widening access to faith schools for anyone who wants one by increasing their supply. You should campaign for a radical expansion of faith schools.

Fourth argument: The judges were right to stress that JFS&#039;s policy wasn&#039;t racist. How could it have been? United Synagogue and JFS would consider an orthodox Jewish child no less Jewish if it had an African Caribbean or Asian father, or three sets of non-Jewish grandparents, or even four so long as there was maternal Jewish ancestry or the mother had met the conditions of orthodox Jewish conversion. As far as I understand the rules governing matrilineal ancestry and the prohibion on marrying out, which an ancestress of mine transgressed, were introduced to ensure fidelity to the faith and prevent its contamination with idolatry and such like pernicious heresies. Very sensible, I think.

If you don&#039;t like the tenets of orthodox Judaism, no one is forcing you to follow them. By that same token, orthodox Jews are entitled to their faith; it is quite wrong of the state to impose a concoted definition of Jewishness on an orthodox Jewish school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First argument: the court has ruled that in future JFS will be able to give priority to Jewish applicants who meet the test of orthodoxy by religious practice; shul attendance, the keeping of a Kosher home and so forth. It has therefore applied a Christian definition of orthodox Judaism (in Christian schools committment to the faith is measured by infant baptism, regular Church attendance and involvement with the local parish) which Christians themselves consider inappropriate. Thus the state has usurped the function, properly belonging to a faith community, to define itself.</p>
<p>Second argument: The Chief Rabbi has not claimed to speak on behalf of Anglo Jewry, he has acted quite properly as the leader of the mainstream Othodox Jewish congregation. JFS is affiliated to United Synagogue, it is an orthodox Jewish school, Chief Rabbi Sacks teaches orthodox Judaism and leads his community. </p>
<p>Third argument: Jewish parents, like parents of other faiths and none have the right to raise their children according to their own religious and/or philosophical principles. Hence, they are entitled to send their children to faith schools which are free at the point of access. To privatise faith schools would be to make it unduly burdensome for people to exercise their rights as well as render them available only to the super-rich. Faith schools are a right, not a privilege.</p>
<p>Contrary to your suggestions, faith schools are just as, if not more diverse than their non-denominational counterparts. Catholic schools, for example tend to be more ethnically-mixed than non-faith schools. Moreover all faith schools take in pupils from other faiths and none if there are places available. Faith schools, which are funded by their denominations as well as the state, prioritise applicants from their own denominations if they are oversubscribed. If you object to this practice, the solution is not to demand the restriction of religious rights or forcing the education of children in secular schools but widening access to faith schools for anyone who wants one by increasing their supply. You should campaign for a radical expansion of faith schools.</p>
<p>Fourth argument: The judges were right to stress that JFS&#8217;s policy wasn&#8217;t racist. How could it have been? United Synagogue and JFS would consider an orthodox Jewish child no less Jewish if it had an African Caribbean or Asian father, or three sets of non-Jewish grandparents, or even four so long as there was maternal Jewish ancestry or the mother had met the conditions of orthodox Jewish conversion. As far as I understand the rules governing matrilineal ancestry and the prohibion on marrying out, which an ancestress of mine transgressed, were introduced to ensure fidelity to the faith and prevent its contamination with idolatry and such like pernicious heresies. Very sensible, I think.</p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t like the tenets of orthodox Judaism, no one is forcing you to follow them. By that same token, orthodox Jews are entitled to their faith; it is quite wrong of the state to impose a concoted definition of Jewishness on an orthodox Jewish school.</p>
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		<title>By: Kam</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/why-jfss-arguments-are-a-crock-of-shit/comment-page-1/#comment-6059</link>
		<dc:creator>Kam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:04:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Its a small point but technically the court voted 7/2 that discrimination had taken place, 5 of direct discrimination, 2 of indirect discrimination and 2 that no discrimination had taken place, however as you can&#039;t have indirect + direct discrimination together, the 2 for indirect were counted as against.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its a small point but technically the court voted 7/2 that discrimination had taken place, 5 of direct discrimination, 2 of indirect discrimination and 2 that no discrimination had taken place, however as you can&#8217;t have indirect + direct discrimination together, the 2 for indirect were counted as against.</p>
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		<title>By: Ruth Lukom</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/why-jfss-arguments-are-a-crock-of-shit/comment-page-1/#comment-6058</link>
		<dc:creator>Ruth Lukom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:05:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yes Yes and YES. The verbal contortions that the judges went through before they put out their judgement must have been entertaining for the fly on the wall.
May I take this opportunity to express solidarity with the BA Cabin crew. The coverage on it has been appallingly distorted.  Am I supposed to care more about people who can afford to go away on an Xmas break than the pay and working conditions of airline staff ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes Yes and YES. The verbal contortions that the judges went through before they put out their judgement must have been entertaining for the fly on the wall.<br />
May I take this opportunity to express solidarity with the BA Cabin crew. The coverage on it has been appallingly distorted.  Am I supposed to care more about people who can afford to go away on an Xmas break than the pay and working conditions of airline staff ?</p>
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		<title>By: Ash</title>
		<link>http://thethirdestate.net/2009/12/why-jfss-arguments-are-a-crock-of-shit/comment-page-1/#comment-6057</link>
		<dc:creator>Ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:04:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3223#comment-6057</guid>
		<description>Actually this judgment affects private schools too. It&#039;s not a question of accepting state money or not.

&gt; There’s no compelling reason why Jewish schools are necessary for the education of Jewish children.

However orthodox schools do see the value and should be able to do exactly that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually this judgment affects private schools too. It&#8217;s not a question of accepting state money or not.</p>
<p>&gt; There’s no compelling reason why Jewish schools are necessary for the education of Jewish children.</p>
<p>However orthodox schools do see the value and should be able to do exactly that.</p>
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