Comments on: France and the Burqa

By: Martin Liddament

Martin Liddament — Wed, 02 Feb 2011 06:14:24 +0000

I have a lot of sympathy with the argument that oppression can be culturally subtle and is often embedded in “family values” whether that family is small or as large as a whole society. I have argued this with a very close friend who wears the headscarf and I have made the points to her that I made in my original post. Believe me, the debate has been long and passionate and deeply personal. No-one, and I mean no-one, tells my friend what to do. My initial stance before I met her were that this is a matter of male suppression of women – pure and simple. Personal experience and long arguments changed my view. I now see the issue as one of religion wanting to dictate how I think and feel about someone else. I quoted another very strong-minded Muslim woman I heard on a radio broadcast saying that she covered up because “you are not supposed to look at me”. I find that extremely pertinent. There is an important difference between her wearing a Burqa because she does not want to be “looked” at and wearing one because she believes I should not be allowed to “look” at her. Her comment reinforces my view that this is another example of religion wanting to first of all say what I should or shouldn’t do and secondly, dictate what I should or shouldn’t think or feel. OK, I will accept an argument that (possibly) male authoritarian values power that as well, deep down, but I believe that is only part of the story.

By: France and the Burqa « Carl Packman

France and the Burqa « Carl Packman — Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:28:48 +0000

[...] While Sarkozy in France has realised that the burqa ban will be harder to enforce than originally believed – and so, therefore, will be shelved – another group of angry right wing men (and women), this time in Britain, have decided the issue is for them, namely UKIP, and for not too dissimilar reasons to those that originally informed UMP’s plans. (Continue) [...]

By: Carl

Carl — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:29:29 +0000

And this is what many Muslim groups have brought to the table (see for example here http://genderacrossborders.com/2009/10/21/muslim-group-calls-for-burka-ban/ ). This should be acknowledged when arguing the case about burqa’s – and should inform our attitude towards those who demand not modesty, but wholesale invisibility of women. Furthermore, it should not be the terrain of the right (the French UMP, or UKIP) to address this, this is a progressive issue.

By: Salman Shaheen

Salman Shaheen — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 11:23:19 +0000

There’s nothing in the Qur’an that says women should wear the burqa. There is nothing in it even that says they should cover their hair or wear the hijab. All it calls for is modesty, for men and women I believe. The rest is down to interpretation and over the centuries the body of conservative Islamic literature has grown through the hadiths written by male Muslim rulers to justify their authority.

By: Carl

Carl — Mon, 25 Jan 2010 10:59:43 +0000

In spite of the numbers we are talking about here, I’d still want to engage with the terms of the burqa debate. Dan, you said something, it is experienced as a free choice, now this I suppose is a very pertinent question, one I suppose for wider discussion on freedom is itself, and a subject for someone more qualified than I am. Nonetheless, the logic of the burqa – whether or not correctly interpreted correctly in the Quran – should be bracketed within gender politics, hegemony and control, false consciousness. The use of sociological concepts allows us to operate in the terrain where we really question the co-ordinates of exhibiting free will by wearing a burqa, and whether this choice is really so embedded in the consciousness of women – whether from an early age or later on in life.

Also, Salman, I agree that islamophobia should stay with Harry’s Place (made me laugh that did) and this is why we step away from patronising burqa wearing women. Many people try to obscure the terms of our debate (since I see we are mostly in agreeance), and that this is not us expressing superiority for our so-called “western liberties” – anything but – this is us seeking to apply objectively observable expressions of cultural freedom (by making the point that the state should stay out, as far as possible, of deciding how a person expresses themselves) whilst also seeking to find answers as to why people do express themselves in certain ways (are there unpalatable forces at play here, is the demand to wear a burqa one such unpalatable force? Is it grounded on sexism?)

I have these opinions on the burqa, I don’t believe I have western-tinted glasses on, I’m not a moral relativist, I have what I see as objective criteria to believe the burqa is, by and large, a repressive demand. But the crux of my original article is to say that the point of blame does not lie alone with the female involved, there is wider background to address and target. Within the Islamic narrative itself, it might be worth looking into how tangible the original demand in the holy text actually is, for there are some groups who dismiss that the burqa is an actual demand (it doesn’t affect my attitude towards the burqa even if it is definitely written up in the scriptures, but it would interesting to see how it fares with the debate held within Islamic context).

By: Salman Shaheen

Salman Shaheen — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:03:43 +0000

You’re right, the burqa itself is a very small issue for women in Europe, however I would treat the niqab and the hijab as extensions of the same problem – male control over the female body. These sorts of debates are often set by Islamophobes, and our first duty has to be to opposing them. We should also recognise that the state has no more right to tell women what they can and cannot wear than their husbands do. But it’s also necessary to re-define the debate in our own terms and to encourage an internal debate amongst Muslims themselves.

By: Dan

Dan — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 22:32:07 +0000

I think you might be reading far more into my comment than I intended, though I suppose it all depends on what you mean by ‘massively important’. I think any discussion which focuses on ‘the burqa’, a garment worn by a tiny minority of women in Europe, is looking in the wrong place. You are right to note the danger of islamophobia, but the problem is that the terms of these debates are too often set by islamophobes; certainly that is the case in France.

By: Salman Shaheen

Salman Shaheen — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 20:33:03 +0000

Really Dan, you don’t think sexual inequality in Muslim society is a massively important issue? I certainly do. I suppose I get a little bit more liberty to say these things because I have a Muslim-sounding name, but I understand that we as Westerners, as atheists, have to be careful when criticising Muslim cultural practices. We certainly wouldn’t want to stray into the territory of Islamophobia. I’ll leave that one to Harry’s Place. However, our concern with avoiding racial or cultural prejudice should not prevent us from criticising gender inequalities where they exist. Certainly I don’t believe this is a matter for the state, but I do believe it is an argument that progressive voices in Muslim societies need to win.

By: Dan

Dan — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:33:52 +0000

Alice has an important point, though, that none of this discussion should ignore what a tiny minority of people we are actually talking about here.

It is also important that it is often experienced as free choice, even if we use whichever favourite sociological term to point out it is more complicated than that.

For people who are serious about taking on “human embodiments of inequality” then there are many better places to start.

By: Salman Shaheen

Salman Shaheen — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 17:29:26 +0000

That’s something of a fallacy Alicey. Often times it’s the converts to an ideology or religion who become its most devoted followers. That’s why you also find a disproportionate number of white converts who become jihadists. Their decision to convert may have been out of free will, and prima facie their decision to wear the burqa is their own. However, the burqa, as a device deployed by the strictest interpretation of religious texts written by men to justify their dominance over women and their bodies, remains a tool of control. As Carl pointed out, it is false consciousness. Or one might look at it in terms of Gramsci’s concept of hegemony. Control is not physically enforced, but rather it is so complete that women believe that wearing the burqa is a natural state of being and do not question it as a repressive device. I agree with you that it shouldn’t be banned by the state. In general, the state should interfere as little as possible with religious freedoms, the rights of minorities and what the individual is allowed to wear in everyday life. But as a tool of male dominance over women, it should be actively questioned. The Muslim community itself must meet these challenges, they can’t be imposed by Western society, but they must not be ignored.