Comments on: 10:23 http://thethirdestate.net/2010/02/1023/ What Is The Third Estate? Everything. What Has It Been Until Now In The Political Order? Nothing. What Does It Want To Be? Something. Wed, 08 Feb 2012 20:19:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.1 By: Dan http://thethirdestate.net/2010/02/1023/comment-page-1/#comment-7222 Dan Thu, 04 Feb 2010 09:32:35 +0000 http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3530#comment-7222 Liz, can I ask, unless I've misunderstood, what you think the relevance of the group being 'atheists' is? Liz, can I ask, unless I’ve misunderstood, what you think the relevance of the group being ‘atheists’ is?

]]> By: Michael http://thethirdestate.net/2010/02/1023/comment-page-1/#comment-7151 Michael Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:17:35 +0000 http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3530#comment-7151 The fact that eating sufficient oranges to give one vitamin C poisoning would be implausible for the other medical problems it would create doesn't quite make it a counterexample. It means that, as a medicine, oranges have very high side effects relative to thier active ingredient (side effects which, at low dosages, happen to coincide with normal nutrition and hydration). Homeopaths claim that their medicine is side effect free (except for the slight increace in blood sugar from the pills), so overdosing should be easy. As I said before, until the homeopaths give some quantification of how dosages are calculated their aren't really any sensible conclusions to draw at all. Except that homeopaths have no interest in proper scientific tests, but we knew that anyway. The fact that eating sufficient oranges to give one vitamin C poisoning would be implausible for the other medical problems it would create doesn’t quite make it a counterexample. It means that, as a medicine, oranges have very high side effects relative to thier active ingredient (side effects which, at low dosages, happen to coincide with normal nutrition and hydration). Homeopaths claim that their medicine is side effect free (except for the slight increace in blood sugar from the pills), so overdosing should be easy. As I said before, until the homeopaths give some quantification of how dosages are calculated their aren’t really any sensible conclusions to draw at all.

Except that homeopaths have no interest in proper scientific tests, but we knew that anyway.

]]> By: Jacob http://thethirdestate.net/2010/02/1023/comment-page-1/#comment-7150 Jacob Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:05:40 +0000 http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3530#comment-7150 Michael, I am quite happy to conjecture that you cannot overdose on vitamin c from eating oranges. I'm no mathmo, but check these numbers: You need 11.9g per kilogram of bodyweight for it to become fatally toxic, and each orange contains about 70mg. According to my slightly dodgy maths, that means a 70kg man would have to eat over 11,000 oranges to have a fatal overdose of vitamin c. You're gonna fuck yourself up in all sorts of ways if you try that but not because of the vitamin c content. Nonetheless the vitamin c content can viably be medically useful. Anyway this is just one counterexample. There are many more. Michael, I am quite happy to conjecture that you cannot overdose on vitamin c from eating oranges. I’m no mathmo, but check these numbers:

You need 11.9g per kilogram of bodyweight for it to become fatally toxic, and each orange contains about 70mg. According to my slightly dodgy maths, that means a 70kg man would have to eat over 11,000 oranges to have a fatal overdose of vitamin c. You’re gonna fuck yourself up in all sorts of ways if you try that but not because of the vitamin c content. Nonetheless the vitamin c content can viably be medically useful. Anyway this is just one counterexample. There are many more.

]]> By: Michael http://thethirdestate.net/2010/02/1023/comment-page-1/#comment-7119 Michael Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:58:53 +0000 http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3530#comment-7119 Actually, you can overdose on oranges. Surplus vitamin C is quite easily disposed of by the body, so a very large overdose is required. Anything that has any effect on your body can, in principle, have too much of an effect. Having said that,given the claims of homeopaths the correct way to overdose on homeopathic medicines is surely to dilute it another 10000 times. The problem being that homeopaths have never bothered to quantify effectiveness as a function of dilution. My suspicion is that the the effectiveness is measured by percentage of patients cured, not by the effect on the individual patient, and has an asymptotic form flattening at the level of a placebo. So further dilution could be claimed to only make a tiny difference. Actually, you can overdose on oranges. Surplus vitamin C is quite easily disposed of by the body, so a very large overdose is required. Anything that has any effect on your body can, in principle, have too much of an effect.

Having said that,given the claims of homeopaths the correct way to overdose on homeopathic medicines is surely to dilute it another 10000 times. The problem being that homeopaths have never bothered to quantify effectiveness as a function of dilution. My suspicion is that the the effectiveness is measured by percentage of patients cured, not by the effect on the individual patient, and has an asymptotic form flattening at the level of a placebo. So further dilution could be claimed to only make a tiny difference.

]]> By: Jacob http://thethirdestate.net/2010/02/1023/comment-page-1/#comment-7118 Jacob Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:16:59 +0000 http://thethirdestate.net/?p=3530#comment-7118 Yeah, of course homeopathy is a huge load of bollocks, and that's obvious to anyone who studied science above the age of 11, ad again, of course the government shouldn't be funding the NHS providing "treatments" that have no proof of helping people, but I have a question: Is the argument that "if I can't overdose on it, it can't have a medical use" not as bad science as homeopathy itself. Let's take another real life example, you have scurvy in the days before you could buy vitamin C pills. The doctor tells you to eat lots of oranges and it sorts you out, while some "sceptics" on the street try to overdose on oranges and fail. Let's keep the arguments scientific not speculative. Yeah, of course homeopathy is a huge load of bollocks, and that’s obvious to anyone who studied science above the age of 11, ad again, of course the government shouldn’t be funding the NHS providing “treatments” that have no proof of helping people, but I have a question: Is the argument that “if I can’t overdose on it, it can’t have a medical use” not as bad science as homeopathy itself. Let’s take another real life example, you have scurvy in the days before you could buy vitamin C pills. The doctor tells you to eat lots of oranges and it sorts you out, while some “sceptics” on the street try to overdose on oranges and fail. Let’s keep the arguments scientific not speculative.

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